Define an "ELITE" program ....

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Searn	Define an "ELITE" program ....		Lead	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7123 04/22/09 10:12 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Tags : None Not to directly rip harvey/Pavlov/etc.'s discussion off mlive .. . Words used like "elite" ... "top" ..."strong" ... "good".... "solid" ..... etc are subjective descriptions of a programs level.... and everyone has their own opinion of who belongs in each category based on their own criteria. To me "elite" is a very strong term and is only reserved for a select few. I'd have to say there's probably less than 5-10 teams at each of the 4 classes (A-B-C-D) ... that have earned the term "elite" over time. Searn's "elite" test .... . I'd say it has to be clear and obvious that the program deserves that honor. To be "elite" it should be obvious to most ... if it warrants arguments and discussion to decide ... then such a program is likely not "elite" ... but perhaps "very good" .... a program that is truly "elite" does not need to convince anyone ...we already know. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum Last Edited By: Searn 04/22/09 1:02 PM. Edited 1 time.
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BIGREDS89		#1	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1473 04/22/09 2:44 PM	I agree and while I do think winning state titles help your cause I don't think you NEED to win state titles. For a couple of examples lets look at CFFP in div 8 they have two titles in school history and history of the playoffs but how many times IN A ROW mind you have they been in the finals. Basically you can just pencil those boys in, in that division anymore. Or how about Dewitt who made it to the finals 4 straight times without winning a title. There has to be some serious and prolonged post season success in my opinion to be considered elite. Owning your conference or city area is not enough, you need to at least win some regionals and make some appearances in the finals. Also if you are not winning any finals you need to then KEEP making appearances in the finals to be considered elite. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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Searn		#2	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7126 04/22/09 3:49 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Another possible distinction could be ... Traditional Elite vs. Current Elite There are programs that have been very good since way back when, but maybe have not been that great recently... and there are programs that were average or bad for a long time and just recently developed a strong program. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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Searn		#3	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7128 04/22/09 4:12 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Ok ... here's the test ... I'm going to throw out some programs ... answer either ELITE or NOT ELITE for each team listed ... I just went though and picked out some somewhat random programs that some might argue either way... You only get 3 seconds to answer ... no pondering or looking up stats .... for this one first reaction is the best one. Allen Park ? Ann Arbor Pioneer? Beal City? Bham Brother Rice? Clarkston? Country Day? Crystal Falls Forest Park? Dearborn Fordson? Detroit Catholic Central? Detroit King? DeWitt? East Lansing? East Grand Rapids? Farmington Hills Harrison? Flint Powers? Frankfort? Gobles? Grand Rapids Catholic Central? Hudson? Hudsonville? Inkster? Jackson Lumen Christi? Lake Orion? Livonia Stevenson? Lowell? Macomb Dakota? Marysville? Menominee? Fowler? Fulton-Middleton? Lake Linden Hubbell? Mendon? Midland? Muskegon? Muskegon Catholic Central? Muskegon Orchard View? Muskegon Oakridge? Orchard Lake St. Mary? Oxford? Rochester Adams? Livonia Churchill? Rockford? Saginaw Nouvel? Pellston? Schoolcraft? Sterling Heights Stevenson? Tekonsha? Traverse City (Central) ? TC St. Francis? Roseville? Utica Eisenhower? Warren DeLaSalle? Warren Connor Creek? Waterford Lakes? Westland John Glenn? It looks like there's a big list here .. but by the rules this should take you no longer than 3 minutes. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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BIGREDS89		#4	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1474 04/22/09 5:13 PM	Searn wrote: Ok ... here's the test ... I'm going to throw out some programs ... answer either ELITE or NOT ELITE for each team listed ... I just went though and picked out some somewhat random programs that some might argue either way... You only get 3 seconds to answer ... no pondering or looking up stats .... for this one first reaction is the best one. Allen Park ? almost Ann Arbor Pioneer? no Beal City? almost Bham Brother Rice? yes Clarkston? not sure Country Day? NO Crystal Falls Forest Park? yes for small schools Dearborn Fordson? no Detroit Catholic Central? used to be Detroit King? no DeWitt? almost used to be but last few years has fallen off East Lansing? no East Grand Rapids? yes definition of elite Farmington Hills Harrison? yes but in danger of falling off Flint Powers? almost Frankfort? no Gobles? used to almost be Grand Rapids Catholic Central? no Hudson? no Hudsonville? almost Inkster? not yet but will be soon on this pace. Jackson Lumen Christi? yes Lake Orion? almost Livonia Stevenson? no Lowell? yes Macomb Dakota? yes Marysville? used to be Menominee? yes Fowler? no Fulton-Middleton? no Lake Linden Hubbell? no Mendon? yes for small schools Midland? no Muskegon? yes Muskegon Catholic Central? yes Muskegon Orchard View? no Muskegon Oakridge? almost leaning towards yes Orchard Lake St. Mary? no they should be but always underachive Oxford? no Rochester Adams? almost Livonia Churchill? no Rockford? yes Saginaw Nouvel? yes Pellston? no Schoolcraft? used to almost be Sterling Heights Stevenson? no Tekonsha? no Traverse City (Central) ? the old tc central before the split YES. Now not so much. TC St. Francis? yes Roseville? no Utica Eisenhower? almost Warren DeLaSalle? almost Warren Connor Creek? no Waterford Lakes? almost Westland John Glenn? no It looks like there's a big list here .. but by the rules this should take you no longer than 3 minutes. did it not sure if under 3 minutes but not much longer than that. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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Spartan2008StateChamps		#5	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 154 04/22/09 5:15 PM	Allen Park- No Ann Arbor Pioneer- No Beal City- No Bham Brother Rice- Traditional Clarkston- No Country Day- No Crystal Falls Forest Park- No Dearborn Fordson- Traditional Detroit Catholic Central- Traditional Detroit King- No DeWitt- No East Lansing- No East Grand Rapids- Current Farmington Hills Harrison- Traditional Flint Powers- No Frankfort- No Gobles- No Grand Rapids Catholic Central- Current Hudson- No Hudsonville- No Inkster- Current Jackson Lumen Christi- No Lake Orion- No Livonia Stevenson- On the Verge Lowell- Current Macomb Dakota- Current Marysville- No Menominee- No Fowler- No Fulton-Middleton- No Lake Linden Hubbell- No Mendon- No Midland- No Muskegon- Current Muskegon Catholic Central- Current Muskegon Orchard View- Current Muskegon Oakridge- Current Orchard Lake St. Mary- Traditional Oxford- No Rochester Adams- No Livonia Churchill- No Rockford- Current Saginaw Nouvel- Current Pellsto- No Schoolcraft- No Sterling Heights Stevenson- Traditional Tekonsha- No Traverse City (Central)- No TC St. Francis- No Roseville- No Utica Eisenhower- No Warren DeLaSalle- No Warren Connor Creek- No Waterford Lakes- No Westland John Glenn- Traditional I obviously don't know much about the lower division team since i don't really follow them so if you have any problems, i'm sorry. Last Edited By: Spartan2008StateChamps 04/28/09 2:16 PM. Edited 2 times.
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BIGREDS89		#6	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1475 04/22/09 5:35 PM	Its mostly opinion anyways spartan. I don't agree with all of yours and I am sure you don't agree with all of mine but that is going to be the fun of it all. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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Searn		#7	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7132 04/22/09 5:44 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	BIGREDS89 wrote: Its mostly opinion anyways spartan. I don't agree with all of yours and I am sure you don't agree with all of mine but that is going to be the fun of it all. Yep, that's kinda the point ... everyone has their own opinion ... but if you could go either way ... the program is probably not "elite" in your mind. And it depends how you look at it .... If this were 5 years ago Farmington Hills Harrison and Detroit Catholic Central would be the elite of the elite .... but they don't stand up so much in 2009 ... Was the past 5 years bad enough to take that much away from their past? and how about some "new powers" like Lowell? Is the 2000's decade of great football mean more than decades of past greatness of some programs? Everyone has their own criteria ... Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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BIGREDS89		#8	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1477 04/22/09 5:48 PM	I did like Spartans tags of "current" and "traditional" http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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pavlov		#9	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 338 04/22/09 6:27 PM	All very subjective, so please don't ask for specifics beyond this opinion..... My definition would include wrapping a specific time period around the title of "elite". Would have to be at least a 4-5 year period. Would have to include conference championships (plural), deep playoff runs, at least one State Championship in the stretch, not missing the playoffs at all in the stretch, and perhaps not getting smoked/routed more than once in the playoffs during that stretch. The list is too long for me. Might take a day or two for me.
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Spartan2008StateChamps		#10	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 155 04/22/09 8:09 PM	of course i would idealy like to look stats up b/c i'll admit that i didnt know much outside of the KLAA and the catholic league. Of course there will be some that we dont agree with, but i would like to put yours with on the verge, because i feel that there are a couple that are almost there and a strong year next year will put them in that category.
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Searn		#11	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7140 04/22/09 9:39 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Spartan2008StateChamps wrote: of course i would idealy like to look stats up b/c i'll admit that i didnt know much outside of the KLAA and the catholic league. Of course there will be some that we dont agree with, but i would like to put yours with on the verge, because i feel that there are a couple that are almost there and a strong year next year will put them in that category. Ya, ... ideally .. The whole point was if you don't really know of the program ... and you are a reasonably big fan of MHSAA football ... chances are they are not "elite" ... they might just be good. Example: I'm pretty sure I've never seen more than 1 consecutive minute of NCAA Women's Basketball ... but somehow I still know that Tennessee and UConn are elite programs .... I've never watched or followed MHSAA cheerleading and somehow I know Rochester is an elite program ... I think anyone who follows MHSAA football generally knows what the elite programs are. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum Last Edited By: Searn 04/22/09 9:41 PM. Edited 1 time.
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BIGREDS89		#12	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1480 04/22/09 9:59 PM	Searn wrote: Spartan2008StateChamps wrote: of course i would idealy like to look stats up b/c i'll admit that i didnt know much outside of the KLAA and the catholic league. Of course there will be some that we dont agree with, but i would like to put yours with on the verge, because i feel that there are a couple that are almost there and a strong year next year will put them in that category. Ya, ... ideally .. The whole point was if you don't really know of the program ... and you are a reasonably big fan of MHSAA football ... chances are they are not "elite" ... they might just be good. Example: I'm pretty sure I've never seen more than 1 consecutive minute of NCAA Women's Basketball ... but somehow I still know that Tennessee and UConn are elite programs .... I've never watched or followed MHSAA cheerleading and somehow I know Rochester is an elite program ... I think anyone who follows MHSAA football generally knows what the elite programs are. exactly, I love the format and would'nt change a thing Searn. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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darin harvey	Searn...	#13	[url]	[-]
Sophomore Posts: 13 04/22/09 11:00 PM	You and BIG REDS make excellent points, But I really believe Longevity and being Consisitent year in and year out would fit that mold, just my opinion!!!
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Searn		#14	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7143 04/22/09 11:12 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	darin harvey wrote: You and BIG REDS make excellent points, But I really believe Longevity and being Consisitent year in and year out would fit that mold, just my opinion!!! That's fine with me ... there's no exact definition in my opinion ... everyone has their own criteria ... This is one of those subjects where I really believe it's completely subjective .. which makes for interesting debate ... on any level. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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darin harvey	Agreed Searn	#15	[url]	[-]
Sophomore Posts: 15 04/22/09 11:14 PM	I think its a great debate now, since Iam sure we are all ready for the start of Football, its been great talking football on this site Searn, keep up the good work!!!
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Mr NCAA		#16	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6568 04/22/09 11:27 PM MHSAA Football Stats	Everyone has their own "elite" teams. I think that having Gobles on the list, but not putting Schoolcraft on your list is laughable. I was somewhat surprised that Searn didn't list neither Constantine nor Sand Creek on his Class C list. Last Edited By: Mr NCAA 04/22/09 11:29 PM. Edited 1 time.
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darin harvey	ELITE..	#17	[url]	[-]
Sophomore Posts: 17 04/22/09 11:33 PM	I think Lowell is a YES!!!
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prepseer	Elite Programs	#18	[url]	[-]
All-Area Posts: 373 04/23/09 9:35 AM http://prepseer.com	Allen Park ? No Ann Arbor Pioneer? No Beal City? No Bham Brother Rice? Yes Clarkston? No Country Day? Yes Crystal Falls Forest Park? Yes Dearborn Fordson? No Detroit Catholic Central? Yes Detroit King? No DeWitt? No East Lansing? No East Grand Rapids? Yes Farmington Hills Harrison? Yes Flint Powers? No Frankfort? No Gobles? No Grand Rapids Catholic Central? No Hudson? No Hudsonville? No Inkster? No Jackson Lumen Christi? Yes Lake Orion? No Livonia Stevenson? No Lowell? Yes Macomb Dakota? Yes Marysville? No Menominee? No Fowler No Fulton-Middleton? No Lake Linden Hubbell? No Mendon? Yes Midland? No Muskegon? Yes Muskegon Catholic Central? Yes Muskegon Orchard View? No Muskegon Oakridge? No Orchard Lake St. Mary? Yes Oxford? No Rochester Adams? Yes Livonia Churchill? No Rockford? Yes Saginaw Nouvel? No Pellston? No Schoolcraft? No Sterling Heights Stevenson? Yes Tekonsha? No Traverse City (Central) ? No TC St. Francis? Yes Roseville? No Utica Eisenhower? Yes Warren DeLaSalle? No Warren Connor Creek? No Waterford Lakes? Yes Westland John Glenn? No
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Qman	Picks	#19	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 249 04/23/09 10:33 AM	Allen Park No Ann Arbor Pioneer No Beal City No Bham Brother Rice Current & Traditional Clarkston Rising Country Day No Crystal Falls Forest Park Traditional Dearborn Fordson No Detroit Catholic Central Traditional Detroit King No DeWitt No East Lansing No East Grand Rapids Traditional/Current Farmington Hills Harrison Traditional Flint Powers Traditional Frankfort No Gobles No Grand Rapids Catholic Central No Hudson No Hudsonville Current Inkster Rising Jackson Lumen Christi Traditional/Current Lake Orion No Livonia Stevenson No Lowell Current Macomb Dakota Rising Marysville Traditional Menominee Rising Fowler Traditional Fulton-Middleton No Lake Linden Hubbell Traditional Mendon Traditional Current Midland No Muskegon Traditional /Current Muskegon Catholic Central Traditional Muskegon Orchard View No Muskegon Oakridge No Orchard Lake St. Mary Traditional Oxford No Rochester Adams No Livonia Churchill No Rockford Current Saginaw Nouvel No Pellston No Schoolcraft Traditional Sterling Heights Stevenson No Tekonsha HA HA HA HA Traverse City (Central) No TC St. Francis? Traditonal/Current Roseville No Utica Eisenhower Traditional Warren DeLaSalle No Warren Connor Creek No Waterford Lakes Borderline Westland John Glenn no I thought I graded hard, but still had more elite than I feel is justified for the term.
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Searn		#20	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7148 04/23/09 11:19 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Interesting stuff guys .... I see someone finally noticed I threw in a few teams just to see if everyone was paying attention .. For Mr. NCAA .... this was not a well researched sample on my part ... I pretty much just went down the teams and picked these out very quickly..... I'm sure those were not the only strong programs I missed. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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Define an "ELITE" program ....

Define an "ELITE" program ....

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