Define an "ELITE" program ....

0 Kudo

Author	Comment
BIGREDS89		#41	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1486 04/29/09 7:37 PM	Why does "elite" have to be part of a group? In your example if that happens then yes Rockford is elite in D1 and everybody else is not. Another way to look at it if you need a group for "elite" status then is that in Michigan we crown EIGHT state champs every year so THERE is your group if you need one. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#42	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 215 04/29/09 8:02 PM	Wow, this thread has really run. Time to go off autopilot and join some discussion.... Lots of good definitions, decent arguments, etc. But honestly, isn't elite a little like pornography?...you just know it when you see it. I would say they are no more than 10 programs in the state that fit the bill of "Elite". Schools that carry such a household name that they strike fear (or at least respect) regardless of their current talent level are probably "Elite". When you hear "We had a great team and only lost to XXX, but everyone loses to them", that team is probably "Elite". It goes without saying that you don't get that kind of rep without winning titles and being on TV. I'm sorry, runner-ups just don't strike the same fear factor, and I think that fear factor is part of the Elite equation.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
completehomer		#43	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 128 04/30/09 1:47 PM	OK, I don't consider the team I follow to be elite (probably the next tier down) but they deserve mention as much as many on the list proposed. So, I'll throw in mention of Marine City and then say, no, not quite elite, but could move up to that level if they can manage another couple of titles in the next few years. The names that immediately come to mind as "elite": OLSM East GR* Dakota Detroit CC Mendon Brother Rice Crystal Falls FP Menominee Farmintgton Hills Harrison (maybe losing it, but I have trouble leaving them off the list) * - Right now, the standard in the state.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Spartan2008StateChamps		#44	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 169 04/30/09 2:13 PM	GuRu, you have very good arguments, but i think that if a team is constantly in the semi-finals and finals but really hasnt got over the hump and won a championship, i would entertain the thought about if they were elite or not. i do agree with you that an elite team are "Schools that carry such a household name that they strike fear (or at least respect) regardless of their current talent level are probably "Elite". When you hear "We had a great team and only lost to XXX, but everyone loses to them", that team is probably "Elite"." Homer i feel that you have a good list but i would include Muskegon and Rockford, and take off CC and Harrison.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
TOMMYZ		#45	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 1st Team Posts: 2337 04/30/09 2:36 PM Forum Donor	completehomer wrote: OK, I don't consider the team I follow to be elite (probably the next tier down) but they deserve mention as much as many on the list proposed. So, I'll throw in mention of Marine City and then say, no, not quite elite, but could move up to that level if they can manage another couple of titles in the next few years. The names that immediately come to mind as "elite": OLSM East GR* Dakota Detroit CC Mendon Brother Rice Crystal Falls FP Menominee Farmintgton Hills Harrison (maybe losing it, but I have trouble leaving them off the list) * - Right now, the standard in the state. Rockford?
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
completehomer		#46	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 130 04/30/09 2:38 PM	Yeah, I'll throw Rockford and Muskegon in there. As I said, that was the list of the first teams to come to my mind.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#47	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 216 04/30/09 10:31 PM	Spartan, I won't argue with your logic but I'll give you an example why I don't think your scenario will ever really be compelling.... The best example of your scenario is embodied by DeWitt. Runner up, what, 4 times? Now that is perfectly respectable. But, a team like that eventually gets tagged with some reasons for always being runner-up....like: "they don't play enough tough competition to prepare them for the big one", or, "they always have an easy road to the semi's or finals", or, "flashy offense but no D, and D wins championships", or, "their scheme or coaching just won't work against the big boys". Now, none of these labels may be fair and some may be downright wrong but, nonetheless, these are the kind of things a majority of people will end up saying about a team who makes it to semi's or finals and constantly loses. And, anyone who thinks any of the above statements to be true is not going to use the word "Elite" to describe that team. To be thought of as "Elite" and to strike that universal fear or respect, you have to silence the vast majority of those critics and you usually only do that by saying "scoreboard" more often than not.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Spartan2008StateChamps		#48	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 171 05/01/09 5:12 AM	all i have to say is that i'm always going to be biased towards runner-ups because of what happened to us against Dakota two years ago.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
BIGREDS89		#49	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1490 05/01/09 6:57 AM	EastGuRu wrote: Spartan, I won't argue with your logic but I'll give you an example why I don't think your scenario will ever really be compelling.... The best example of your scenario is embodied by DeWitt. Runner up, what, 4 times? Now that is perfectly respectable. But, a team like that eventually gets tagged with some reasons for always being runner-up....like: "they don't play enough tough competition to prepare them for the big one", or, "they always have an easy road to the semi's or finals", or, "flashy offense but no D, and D wins championships", or, "their scheme or coaching just won't work against the big boys". Now, none of these labels may be fair and some may be downright wrong but, nonetheless, these are the kind of things a majority of people will end up saying about a team who makes it to semi's or finals and constantly loses. And, anyone who thinks any of the above statements to be true is not going to use the word "Elite" to describe that team. To be thought of as "Elite" and to strike that universal fear or respect, you have to silence the vast majority of those critics and you usually only do that by saying "scoreboard" more often than not. In all honesty Dewitt should have beaten Orchard View in 2004. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
completehomer		#50	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 133 05/01/09 9:29 AM	Even though I don't list them as elite, as they haven't been in the vicinity of elite in more than a decade, the team mentioned in the original post that I'm most impressed with (and it hurts me to say this) is Marysville. When you look at Marysville, you see that a good portion of their time at the top was in the era of only 4 classes, and many say the best football team they ever saw was a Marysville team that went undefeated in 1984 (I think that was the year), had an average margin of victory of nearly 35 points, but didn't make the playoffs that year because of the goofy-way the system worked at the time. Yes, other programs were elite at that time, who continue to have success, but Marysville stands out as the one on the list who is not a really small school (sizeable Class B school) that is a public school and does not draw in kids from out of district. To me, the Walt Braun days of Marysville were as impressive as just about anything any of these teams has done. And that's coming from a Marine City guy, who just threw up a little in his mouth because of acknowledging how great the Viking program was back in the day. EDIT: I don't know a lot about the demographics at EGR, but just assume that they are not all homegrown kids to have that much talent continuously flowing through the system. Maybe I'm wrong. Last Edited By: completehomer 05/01/09 9:32 AM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Mr NCAA		#51	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6597 05/01/09 9:44 AM MHSAA Football Stats	I guess that I will add my two cents worth of comments finally. Just because a team made the finals doesn't necessarily mean that they were the second best team in that particular division. It depends on the playoff scores that particular year. All making the finals means to me is that the team was on the other side of the bracket compared to the state champion. Since Dewitt was brought up, I see at least 3 of those finals having a worse point differential compared to another playoff team that played the state champion earlier in the playoffs. One year Dewitt lost to the state champion by the biggest point differential. I hate to pick on Dewitt, but quite often the championship game is anticlimatic.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#52	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 218 05/01/09 2:31 PM	Hey Homer, I'm sure you will hear dissenters, but since you brought it up, here's my take..... EGR is not made up of cheaters, recruiters, or the recipient of divine intervention. EGR is not a private school. We are a landlocked public school (meaning we won't be growing any time soon). Like every other public school in the state you either have to live in the district or be a "school of choice" kid, for which there were (I believe) 79 last year for grades 9-12. Out of those 79, there was one (McEwen) who played football and he was a defensive back, good kid, but hardly a star player on the team. Our most recent standouts were mostly homegrown kids.....Grady's since 1st grade, Glendennings k-12, Blairs k-12, etc. The one standout recently who was not home grown was Daryl Davis Budnaro whose family moved into district from Texas after his father was transferred to our community for work. I do think that EGR benefits from their academic and football success in getting a kid like Budnaro to choose EGR over other area schools when moving to the greater Grand Rapids area. Anyway, here's my take.....Grades 9-12 have incredibly motivated and cohesive coaching staffs all working toward the same goal. The head coach (Stuursma) is a dynamic motivator, the principal of the middle school, who makes a point to learn every kids name in the first week of school, and the kids like him and want to play for him. The kids, for their part, grow up seeing the football team and players as iconic in our community and, from an early age, strive to be a part of that. EGR has had and will have "down" years, but the above conditions mean that even kids of average talent are in a system whereby they believe they can win state (their brother or neighbor did!) Last Edited By: EastGuRu 05/01/09 3:38 PM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
completehomer		#53	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 135 05/01/09 2:41 PM	Thanks for the info, EastGuRu. I certainly wasn't implying that EGR was cheating or recruiting. I stated I didn't know much about what goes on there, just suspected that out of district kids were probably present to have so many athletes at one public school of EGR's size. The program sounds a lot like what Walt did at Marysville, and what the current staff does at Marine City. But neither of those programs had the horses that EGR has had. Then again, neither of those programs are as close to a real metro area like Grand Rapids. My point was only that Walt Braun had a lot of limitations, in terms of a pool of talent, but built an elite program just the same. I certainly did not mean that to be, in any way, disrespectful towards EGR's program, which I noted as the standard of excellence in current MHSAA football programs in my first post to this thread.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#54	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 219 05/01/09 2:53 PM	I know you didn't Homer. My comments were pre-deflections from those who love to bash on EGR. I think you are spot on in comparing the old Marysville coach to what's going on at East. And, yes, we have had a little luck in getting some crazy good kids like the Grady's, Glendennings, and Blairs but we all know they couldn't do it alone.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
completehomer		#55	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 136 05/01/09 2:56 PM	I agree. In football, the system is more important than the athletes, but athletes certainly help. When you inject athletes into a great program, you end up with the current situation at EGR and the Harrison teams of their hay day.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
MegaFan66		#56	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 119 05/02/09 6:48 AM	Searn wrote: Honestly, If Rockford was that dominant in D1 to win 10 straight titles ... I'm not sure any other D1 teams would deserve to be called "elite" over that decade .... Rockford would clearly be the elite program for that decade ... and unless they beat the same team in the finals every year by close margins .... I can't see how any other team would deserve to be in the same grouping as Rockford. If there's that much difference between one team to the next (10 titles to everyone's 0) ... and assuming you consider elite to be the top grouping of team(s) ... I would say Rockford would likely be the only program that I could consider elite... This is the definition of elite: 1. the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. So by definition, you can't consider Rockford as the only elite team. Rockford would be by far the best, but the best, and the elite are two different things.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
MegaFan66		#57	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 120 05/02/09 6:53 AM	BIGREDS89 wrote: Why does "elite" have to be part of a group? In your example if that happens then yes Rockford is elite in D1 and everybody else is not. Another way to look at it if you need a group for "elite" status then is that in Michigan we crown EIGHT state champs every year so THERE is your group if you need one. It has to be part of a group because that's the definition of elite. Elite- the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. If you don't consider it as part of a group, then you are off topic. And in my example I only specified D1, not the entire state.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Searn		#58	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7192 05/02/09 10:12 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	I'm no English buff, ... but I didn't get that out of the definition posted. "the choice or best" .... could be any amount All the group or class part told me is that the "choice or best" selection was out of that group, collectively. Even if you are correct considering the definition, .... I still disagree that one can't bet considered the only elite. Take this example .... a graduating class of 100 students One student score a perfect 800 in the math section .... the rest of the 99 students score between 350-450 ..... Who are the elite math minds of that graduating class? I don't see one could group anyone as "elite" with the one great mind that scored a perfect 800. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
BIGREDS89		#59	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1491 05/02/09 10:58 AM	I am with searn on this one although I am sure we will just get accused for being S.O.S. or whatever. However in the definition of elite is does say small group however it does not specify what the size of the group has to be so no in your example Rockford is "elite" and nobody else is plain and simple. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Searn		#60	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7197 05/02/09 11:06 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Can't argue that when the word "elite" is used it's almost always more than one .... it's usually a group of elite. But I just can't see classifying teams/persons/etc. as elite just to have more than one ... Whether it's one team or 10 teams that are far superior to the group .... and MegaFan66 may be correct .... but I can't just throw in an extra team in the elite group just to satisfy a definition when I really don't think they are anywhere near the same level. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Add Reply

Michigan-Football.com	West Michigan All Star Blog	MI HS Football Stadium	Mich. Helmet Project
Prepseer.com	Snooze's MHSAA Playoff Maps	Michigan Sports Radio - Preps	MHSAA
The Write Referee Blog	Michigan Small School Football	Upper Peninsula High School Football	Other Links

Yuku free message boards

Define an "ELITE" program ....

Quick Reply