Define an "ELITE" program ....

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Mr NCAA		#21	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6572 04/23/09 11:37 AM MHSAA Football Stats	I knew that you threw in a few teams to throw people off. There are more teams that should have been listed without doing any research. I find it fascinating how some people call a program either current or traditional elite, but programs with better qualifications are left off their particular list.
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Searn		#22	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7150 04/23/09 12:01 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	Mr NCAA wrote: I knew that you threw in a few teams to throw people off. There are more teams that should have been listed without doing any research. I find it fascinating how some people call a program either current or traditional elite, but programs with better qualifications are left off their particular list. Based on some results I guess I understand more what Spartan was saying about some not following the smaller schools. While Detroit area Class A followers know a few small schools that have been really dominant like Mendon but they are not really aware of some other small schools that should be in the same conversation. But perhaps that's the biggest test for being "elite" .... If some high school football fan in say Livonia has not really heard of your football program, maybe you are not as elite as you thought? .... It's hard to say ... it's all very interesting to me to say the least. I think anything beyond 5 or so programs in each class and you are stretching "elite" a bit .. but that's just my opinion ... with tough standards. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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Mr NCAA		#23	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6573 04/23/09 12:08 PM MHSAA Football Stats	I'd have to say there's probably less than 5-10 teams at each of the 4 classes (A-B-C-D) Now you are saying 5 teams per class instead of a potential 10.
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Qman		#24	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 250 04/23/09 12:44 PM	How about everyone ranks thier terms so we can understand where everyone is coming from. For me "Elite" less than the top 1% is elite to me "solid" 90th percentile type of program "competitive" 75-90th percentile program "above average" 55-75th percentile "average" 40-55th percentile "below average" 10-40th percentile "oh no" 0-10th percentile
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Searn		#25	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7151 04/23/09 2:01 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	I said ''5 or so'' .... meaning it could be more than 5. There's no exact number on this topic .... There could be 15 in ones mind and 5 in another's .... I just think the more teams you have on your list the more you take away from the 'elite status'. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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MegaFan66		#26	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 113 04/26/09 10:46 AM	Spartan2008StateChamps wrote: Dearborn Fordson- No Westland John Glenn- Traditional I can't agree with that. What has John Glenn done that Fordson has not? Fordson has a title, Glenn does not, and Fordson actually beat Glenn for that title. Fordson has been to the finals a total of 4 times. The semis 6 times, which I believe is more than Glenn.
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MegaFan66		#27	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 114 04/26/09 10:50 AM	pavlov wrote: All very subjective, so please don't ask for specifics beyond this opinion..... My definition would include wrapping a specific time period around the title of "elite". Would have to be at least a 4-5 year period. Would have to include conference championships (plural), deep playoff runs, at least one State Championship in the stretch, not missing the playoffs at all in the stretch, and perhaps not getting smoked/routed more than once in the playoffs during that stretch. What happens if in that specific time period nobody meets that criteria?
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Searn		#28	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7159 04/26/09 10:52 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	MegaFan66 wrote: Spartan2008StateChamps wrote: Dearborn Fordson- No Westland John Glenn- Traditional I can't agree with that. What has John Glenn done that Fordson has not? Fordson has a title, Glenn does not, and Fordson actually beat Glenn for that title. Fordson has been to the finals a total of 4 times. The semis 6 times, which I believe is more than Glenn. I'll agree with that one ... I'd put them in similar company at the least.... Fordson being stronger both traditionally and currently. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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Spartan2008StateChamps		#29	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 162 04/26/09 6:31 PM	well, i have to say that i wasn't around much to watch Fordson, and growing up in WLAA where Glenn was considered a traditional powerhouse. Myself only being 18 wasn't around when Fordson won in '30, '43, and '71 or when they were runner ups in '80, '82, and '84. so after doing research, i would consider them a traditional power.
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MegaFan66		#30	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 115 04/27/09 4:26 PM	Spartan2008StateChamps wrote: Myself only being 18 wasn't around when Fordson won in '30, '43, and '71 or when they were runner ups in '80, '82, and '84. so after doing research, i would consider them a traditional power. And actually beating John Glenn for the AA title in 1993.
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Spartan2008StateChamps		#31	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 166 04/27/09 5:56 PM	Yes, but i was saying that i wasn't around when they won three of their championships and i was only two when they beat JG.
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TOMMYZ		#32	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 1st Team Posts: 2335 04/28/09 9:38 AM Forum Donor	My personal opinion on what elite is, is this... 1. I base everything off of a 10 year period...I believe its the only fair way as a team could have one great class and then fall off.. 2. I also believe that if you do not win a championship, you cannot even be considered elite..Elite is the best of the best..If you do not win a championship, you were never the best of the best..
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Qman		#33	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 251 04/28/09 1:57 PM	I think you need to look big picture on a traditional program, recent works for about 5-10 year window. For traditional elites you need to have at least won a state title, but a couple state title does not guarantee elite.
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Spartan2008StateChamps		#34	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 167 04/28/09 2:13 PM	Tommy, so you would say that if a team lost 4 straight state championship games that you wouldn't consider them being elite? i would think that being one of the top two teams in your division would clasify you as elite.
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MegaFan66		#35	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 116 04/28/09 4:50 PM	TOMMYZ wrote: 2. I also believe that if you do not win a championship, you cannot even be considered elite..Elite is the best of the best..If you do not win a championship, you were never the best of the best.. I agree a lot with the guy from Fordson on Mlive about this. I think the best way to determine whether or not someone is elite is first to define elite. Going by your definition of a 10 year period, I would say the top 10 programs in those 10 years is elite. Then to determine who those 10 programs are, I would take a bunch of programs and compare them year by year, rank them 1 through whatever, and then the 10 with the lowest averages would be the elite programs of those 10 years. Where I think I disagree with you is in the following scenario: Let's say from 2010 to 2019, Lake Orion goes 9-0, goes to the state championship game every season and loses every time. In the same time period, East Kentwood wins the 2016 title, but all the other 9 years, they win no more than 4 games a season. In this scenario, is it your position that because of the state title, East Kentwood is an elite program, and because of the lack of a title, Lake Orion is not?
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Searn		#36	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7167 04/28/09 5:55 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	MegaFan66 wrote: TOMMYZ wrote: 2. I also believe that if you do not win a championship, you cannot even be considered elite..Elite is the best of the best..If you do not win a championship, you were never the best of the best.. I agree a lot with the guy from Fordson on Mlive about this. I think the best way to determine whether or not someone is elite is first to define elite. Going by your definition of a 10 year period, I would say the top 10 programs in those 10 years is elite. Then to determine who those 10 programs are, I would take a bunch of programs and compare them year by year, rank them 1 through whatever, and then the 10 with the lowest averages would be the elite programs of those 10 years. Where I think I disagree with you is in the following scenario: Let's say from 2010 to 2019, Lake Orion goes 9-0, goes to the state championship game every season and loses every time. In the same time period, East Kentwood wins the 2016 title, but all the other 9 years, they win no more than 4 games a season. In this scenario, is it your position that because of the state title, East Kentwood is an elite program, and because of the lack of a title, Lake Orion is not? To defend TZ ... on the East Kentwood point ... he didn't say winning a title automatically made a program elite. ... it was simply part of the criteria. In general I agree with TOMMYZ opinion about having to win a state title to be considered for "elite status" ... but there could be exceptions ... it would be hard to deny a team like LO in the example given going 13-1 every season for 10 straight seasons. ... that would be pretty darn impressive. But to his point ... are you really elite of a period of time if you were never "the best" even once during that period. Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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BIGREDS89		#37	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1485 04/28/09 9:23 PM	Exactly, just what TZ and Searn posted. winning a title does not gurantee you to be elite but for the most part you cannot be witout one. I think there are some exceptions. Dewitt when they had 4 straight runners up would be an exception for me. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k245/marinercoachkk/singlewing.gif
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TOMMYZ		#38	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 1st Team Posts: 2336 04/29/09 5:29 PM Forum Donor	Searn is right in what im saying...I though am still of the opinion that if you do not win a state championship, you are not elite...Sorry, that is part of my criteria..If you are never the best of the best..YOu are not elite...
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MegaFan66		#39	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 117 04/29/09 5:31 PM	Searn wrote: To defend TZ ... on the East Kentwood point ... he didn't say winning a title automatically made a program elite. ... it was simply part of the criteria. But to his point ... are you really elite of a period of time if you were never "the best" even once during that period. OK, then here's another example. From 2010 to 2019, Rockford wins every D1 state title. So are they then the only elite team in D1 for that decade? For those that are trying to argue that you have to win a title to be considered elite, that would eliminate everybody else from elite status, wouldn't it? But you can't do that because to be elite means to collectively be in a group that's better than the larger group. Hopefully that made sense, because I think that proves you don't have to win a state title to be considered elite. And you can't just make an exception for this example, because then you wouldn't be fair and consistent.
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Searn		#40	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7171 04/29/09 7:37 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com http://ndfanzone.com	MegaFan66 wrote: Searn wrote: To defend TZ ... on the East Kentwood point ... he didn't say winning a title automatically made a program elite. ... it was simply part of the criteria. But to his point ... are you really elite of a period of time if you were never "the best" even once during that period. OK, then here's another example. From 2010 to 2019, Rockford wins every D1 state title. So are they then the only elite team in D1 for that decade? For those that are trying to argue that you have to win a title to be considered elite, that would eliminate everybody else from elite status, wouldn't it? But you can't do that because to be elite means to collectively be in a group that's better than the larger group. Hopefully that made sense, because I think that proves you don't have to win a state title to be considered elite. And you can't just make an exception for this example, because then you wouldn't be fair and consistent. Honestly, If Rockford was that dominant in D1 to win 10 straight titles ... I'm not sure any other D1 teams would deserve to be called "elite" over that decade .... Rockford would clearly be the elite program for that decade ... and unless they beat the same team in the finals every year by close margins .... I can't see how any other team would deserve to be in the same grouping as Rockford. If there's that much difference between one team to the next (10 titles to everyone's 0) ... and assuming you consider elite to be the top grouping of team(s) ... I would say Rockford would likely be the only program that I could consider elite... Interested in where MHSAA players will be playing at the next level and/or college football in general? Come join us in the College Football & Recruiting Forum
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Define an "ELITE" program ....

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