Just thinking, should a conference championship = an automatic playoff berth?

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Searn

Just thinking, should a conference championship = an automatic playoff berth?

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10/03/08 12:54 AM

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I was just looking at the Big 9 standings.

Davison could finish as the Big 9 Conference Champions this year and not make the state playoffs.

They now sit at 2-3 (2-0 in the big 9)

In my opinion they should beat Flint Powers and Flint Carman-Ainsworth to finish a sweep of the Big 9 (4-0)

Unfortunately those could end up their only 4 wins.... as they finish the season with two tough game against Orchard Lake St. Mary and Holt. At this point I would pick OLSM to beat Davison and the Holt game as a tossup.

So I'm thinking 4-5 or 5-4 with a Big 9 Championship ... and playoff hopes to be determined.

"Crank Me Up!"

Last Edited By: Searn 10/03/08 5:35 PM. Edited 1 time.

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AuldSchool

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10/03/08 1:34 AM

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I was going to say it would be hard not to get a playoff berth after winning a conference. Aren't there some other conferences in that area that are breaking up? This should only be a temporary situation. Having to find that many non-league games usually only leaves the cream of the crop that still are looking for games.

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ColonelKVC

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10/03/08 9:53 AM

In this case, I don't think a conference title should equal an auto playoff berth. First, there aren't enough teams in the Big 9. Second, the teams in the Big 9 have a lot of talent, but underachieve consistently (Ainsworth topping that list). Third, Davison chose the schedule they have. If they don't make it, they only have themselves to blame for choosing a schedule that virtually guaranteed any team but a state title contender of missing the playoffs. I can see picking up two or three of those teams, but Lowell, Rockford, Sexton, OLSM, and Holt? What the heck were they thinking?

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redwing55

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10/03/08 12:53 PM

Auto berth MAY be good if the in Conf play is of a particular number. I'm thinking 6 games (2/3 of the season.) If the conference is too small, then it really isn't much of an accomplishment to "win" it. I guess that would throw out the 6 and less team conf out.

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Searn

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10/03/08 2:28 PM

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I'll add that I do NOT think it should = an automatic playoff berth.

But looking at Davison's season made me think about it anyway.

Pre-1999 I'm sure it was common for a conference champion to be left out of the state playoffs ... but I wonder how often it actually happens since the '6-win' system went into place.

As for the Big 9 ... sounds like it wont be long before it's the Big 0

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Mr NCAA

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10/03/08 4:49 PM

MHSAA Football Stats

The MHSAA can always adopt the Texas system LOL where the non district (conference for our purposes) don't count!!!!

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Searn

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10/03/08 5:36 PM

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Mr NCAA wrote:
The MHSAA can always adopt the Texas system LOL where the non district (conference for our purposes) don't count!!!!

There's good and bad to that ... the good is that teams could schedule brutal non-district games and not have to worry about qualifying for the state playoffs.

"Crank Me Up!"

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Oman0123

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10/03/08 7:47 PM

I think if they go 4-5 then they should be given some consideration for the playoffs but wouldnt be shocked if they dont make it. How many teams historically have made it in at 4-5? If they go 5-4 they should be given the benifet of the doubt. They have been good for about the last decade. going to the semis twice, also they schedule stud teams year in and year out. Let alone if they do beat Holt or OLSM a top 10 team and Holt a top 20 team i beleive. but scheduleing 3 or 4 top 10 teams? thats just brutal

Last Edited By: Oman0123 10/03/08 7:51 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Searn

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10/03/08 8:00 PM

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Oman0123 wrote:
I think if they go 4-5 then they should be given some consideration for the playoffs but wouldnt be shocked if they dont make it. How many teams historically have made it in at 4-5? If they go 5-4 they should be given the benifet of the doubt. They have been good for about the last decade. going to the semis twice, also they schedule stud teams year in and year out. Let alone if they do beat Holt or OLSM a top 10 team and Holt a top 20 team i beleive. but scheduleing 3 or 4 top 10 teams? thats just brutal

If they go 4-5, 0%
If they go 5-4, maybe ... I'll let one of the POP gurus answer that one.

There's no such thing as benefit of the doubt if they win less than 6 games .. it's determined by their playoff points.

There were teams that made it with 3 and 4 wins back in the old system... but now it's not gonna happen.

"Crank Me Up!"

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Mr NCAA

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10/03/08 8:15 PM

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Searn is right. This scenario actually happened to a 4 - 5 Class D team that had a higher CPA than the 5 - 4 team that qualified for the playoffs. So go figure that one out. I'm for the highest CPA getting the at large berths, but the MHSAA hasn't seen the wisdom in that yet.

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Oman0123

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10/03/08 8:25 PM

ahhh thanks for the info guys. it serves davison right for scheduling such a brutal schedule if they dont get in. i think they should handle Holt pretty good. OLSM thats a different story. I think they will be playoff bound

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Searn

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10/03/08 8:55 PM

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The "worst" playoff team I ever recall is back in 1997 ... Wyandotte Mt. Carmel made the playoffs in Class D with a 3-6 record.

By the way ... I don't know this for fact ... but there's a good chance there were some 8-1 teams in the upper classes that did not make the playoffs that year.

That's why the old format was flawed.

"Crank Me Up!"

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BiasedGuy

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10/03/08 9:50 PM

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Leave it the way it is. The MHSAA just needs to rethink some of their playoff pairings/regions/distircts

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EKDAD

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10/04/08 9:47 AM

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I agree, the current system seems to work (although not perfect) and is certainly more equitable then those mentioned above. The best overall teams that have achieved the best records should be the ones rewarded with a playoff birth. Just my 2 cents...

GO EK!!

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ColonelKVC

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10/04/08 9:53 AM

BiasedGuy wrote:
Leave it the way it is. The MHSAA just needs to rethink some of their playoff pairings/regions/distircts

Agree. Go to regions with 8 seeds instead of districts with 4 seeds--this will help avoid some re-matches.

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applefan84

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10/04/08 8:57 PM

Mr NCAA wrote:
Searn is right. This scenario actually happened to a 4 - 5 Class D team that had a higher CPA than the 5 - 4 team that qualified for the playoffs. So go figure that one out. I'm for the highest CPA getting the at large berths, but the MHSAA hasn't seen the wisdom in that yet.

CPA=Playoff points? If so, I would oppose this because it is going to disfavor small schools over larger ones (and the MHSAA has to serve its entire constituency). There is no particular reason to say that a 5-win Class A school should get in ahead of a 5-win Class D school (or, even worse, a 3 or 4-win Class A school over a 5-win class D school) simply because the Class A school gets 80 points for its wins. I know it's averaged out and whatnot, but generally speaking, going strictly by playoff points average will favor the larger school when comparing two schools with more-or-less identically mediocre "playoff resumes." As it is, the current system fills the "at-large" berths by taking the top school by playoff points in Class A, then the top in Class B, then in C, etc., and starts over at A each time. So, for example, if there are 7 at-large berths, that will always be two from A, two from B, two from C, and 1 from D. I am not sure how to "fix" that, but I don't think it's especially fair; going STRICTLY by playoff points average would, it seems to me, only make it worse.

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applefan84

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10/04/08 9:14 PM

ColonelKVC wrote:

BiasedGuy wrote:
Leave it the way it is. The MHSAA just needs to rethink some of their playoff pairings/regions/distircts
Agree. Go to regions with 8 seeds instead of districts with 4 seeds--this will help avoid some re-matches.

The significant problem with regions of 8 seeds is the unbelievable travel (and, I find that the most vocal proponents of that are people from southern Michigan, where the travel would be much less significant). Consider that, under the Week 5 playoff projections, Escanaba could end up in the same region as Lansing-Sexton or Zeeland-East (if this map held up, it seems to me it'd be pretty difficult actually to pick which of those two Districts would be paired with the UP District as Region 1). Escanaba is 411 miles from Zeeland-East, and 376 miles from Lansing-Sexton. I wish this was an unusually extreme situation, but it isn't; it is pretty common, especially in Divisions 3 and 4, to have extremely long travel distances from one end of the Region to the other. I think the MHSAA is basically tolerant of this when it is unavoidable under the current format, but I would agree with them that it is unnecessary to send schools this kind of a distance in the very first round of the playoffs, just to ensure that a team that's already pretty good can face the weakest possible team in their first playoff game. If the MHSAA could somehow add 2 weeks to the playoffs (go to an 8-week regular season, and have the Finals be the weekend that the Girls Basketball Finals used to be? I am not sure if there's a good way to do that or even if it is a good idea...) they could have all schools participate, like in other sports, and collapse to 6 Divisions, instead of 8, which would reduce travel and change some of the match-ups that we see repeating year after year.

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ColonelKVC

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10/04/08 9:39 PM

Good point. Okay, just go to regions with 8 seeds in D1.

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aowwt

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10/04/08 10:15 PM

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actually the mhsfca has looked into this for several years. They found no significant change in millage from seeded districts to seeded regions. They were able to get the mhsaa to go to no location seeded districts. What was happening before two years ago was UP schools would be forced to play a #1 vs #2 game in the first wk of the playoffs because the schools were over 300 miles or so apart. Thats no longer an issue. The issue was pretty stupid in the first place since they would be traveling just as long if not more over the course of the rest of the playoffs.

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Mr NCAA

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10/04/08 10:26 PM

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CPA=Playoff points? If so, I would oppose this because it is going to disfavor small schools over larger ones (and the MHSAA has to serve its entire constituency). There is no particular reason to say that a 5-win Class A school should get in ahead of a 5-win Class D school (or, even worse, a 3 or 4-win Class A school over a 5-win class D school) simply because the Class A school gets 80 points for its wins. I know it's averaged out and whatnot, but generally speaking, going strictly by playoff points average will favor the larger school when comparing two schools with more-or-less identically mediocre "playoff resumes." As it is, the current system fills the "at-large" berths by taking the top school by playoff points in Class A, then the top in Class B, then in C, etc., and starts over at A each time. So, for example, if there are 7 at-large berths, that will always be two from A, two from B, two from C, and 1 from D. I am not sure how to "fix" that, but I don't think it's especially fair; going STRICTLY by playoff points average would, it seems to me, only make it worse.

Where did I mention Class A, Class B, or Class C in my post? I didn't so half of your quote is taking things out of context. Why does the MHSAA reward the higher CPA teams with home field advantage in the first 3 rounds? If they do that, then I'm for putting the higher "at large" teams by the CPA method as well as it is rotated from Class A - Class D. Yes, it is called CPA and I'll edit this post to prove it:

http://web.archive.org/we...ames/sports/fb/fbrank.pdf

I call it Computer Playoff Averages since a computer does the work.

Now you want to tell me how my proposal isn't fair to the small schools?

Last Edited By: Mr NCAA 10/04/08 10:32 PM. Edited 3 times.

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applefan84

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10/04/08 10:52 PM

aowwt wrote:
actually the mhsfca has looked into this for several years. They found no significant change in millage from seeded districts to seeded regions. They were able to get the mhsaa to go to no location seeded districts. What was happening before two years ago was UP schools would be forced to play a #1 vs #2 game in the first wk of the playoffs because the schools were over 300 miles or so apart. Thats no longer an issue. The issue was pretty stupid in the first place since they would be traveling just as long if not more over the course of the rest of the playoffs.

I know that MHSFCA has proposed this, but I don't know that it has made any such finding that it won't increase the mileage. They proposed it in 2005 and again in 2006. In 2006, they said it would "eliminate current Pre-District and District match-ups, but will create match-ups within the geographic region." As I said earlier, I don't think this is true. Although the match-ups under a 1-8 seeding system would have all of the match-ups take place within the "Region" (with a capital "R"!) there is no realistic way that Lansing can be said to be in the same geographic region of the State as Escanaba. Certainly, each District needs 4 teams and someone needs to end up in it, but I wouldn't support stretching it any further. There's a pretty significant distance difference between Escanaba-->Bay City/Mt. Pleasant, and Escanaba-->Zeeland/Lansing (which would be potential matchups on the current Division 3 projection). I don't recall the proposal, in either '05 or '06, offering any statistical evidence/research to support the assertion that the mileage wouldn't increase substantially.

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Just thinking, should a conference championship = an automatic playoff berth?

Just thinking, should a conference championship = an automatic playoff berth?

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